Richard Oliver

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Posts by Richard Oliver

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  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Outlaw how about you stop being a bastard and name calling people and be a freaking adult. Buy group. You won't hear from me again. And I am sure plenty of people will be ecstatic by that and good for them. I don't care anymore. Do whatever the hell you want and want to believe.
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  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  The point of my posting this thread and many people have recognized it. It was to highlight that as a society we need to focus on things that are verifiably true and things that masquerade as fact even though they are opinion or feelings. Again I have stated this before, I never intended to bring up me being gay until someone questioned if I truly had a problem with Watchtower teaching. And this portion about a high control organization started because you used an analogy of two people in an abusive relationship. I didn't accept your claim that it is a high control organization and it just spun into this place.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Honestly i am not going to describe my feelings on this in this forum because all it would do is start an argument. I am not intending to start an argument and a debate on Watchtower as being a high control organization.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Again orphan crow. I never contended that some people cannot say that Watchtower is a high control organization. I just said it is not a verifiable fact. And all it would lead to is an argument. That is not my intention to lead to an argument. You just feel that if you say that they are one then every reasonable person should view it too. Unless it is a generally accepted fact by either the general public or by experts in the field then it is just an opinion. You want no one to disagree with you but you feel that you can disagree with anyone you want to. Again I never said that you don't feel that they are. It is clear that you feel that way. But it is not a generally accepted fact.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Finkeinstein:

  My point is that it is not a verifiable fact. It is an opinion based on people's perception and experiences. Again I repeatedly said that it does not take away how people feel. But how people feel and what their opinion is, does not mean it is a fact. It is a fact for them but doesn't mean it is a fact for anyone.

  Also I now that people have committed suicide. I have suffered from deep clinical depression in the past and at times at present. And, again this is my opinion, it is not right to claim that a suicide is caused by one factor. Suicide is a horrible event that affects not just the one that loses their life but also their family and friends who rarely ever recover from that lost. I have known gay friends to have attempted to commit suicide and I have even contemplated it at on a few occasions. At times I contemplated it because I felt like a failure, at other times due to my sexuality and still at other times due to other struggles I was facing at that exact moment. And there is a New Zealand psychologist on this site, and I don't know him personally but I am sure he can attest that in his experience and in his studies that he has found that suicide or attempts of suicide is caused by a number of factors in a persons life. Please don't try and say that people commit suicide for the exclusive reason that they are either gay or a witness. There are a number of factors that play into that kind of dispair.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Orphan Crow: Your last statement does highlight again what a subjective analysis is and what an objective analysis is. Again, we may have different definitions for those two terms, and I provided you with the definition that I am using, which again are recognized definitions.

  I used the analogy of weight to define my definition of objective and subjective information. A scale shows an actual fact which is objective, no reasonable person can dispute what the scale says. Though, the perception of if something is heavy or not, depends on a person's objective observation of the item.

  You wrote this:

  Richard, why do you need a peer reviewed article that specifically states that? Are you not capable of rationally analyzing this on your own? Can you not access a list of characteristics of a high control group and compare it to the WTS?

  It is a simple exercise that does not require peer reviewed articles that directly speak of the WTS. There is plenty of information from recognized mental health professionals that lay down the parameters of what defines a high control group. You are fully capable of inserting "characteristics of a high control group" into your search engine and rationally choosing those sources that are attached to a mental health professional that has at least a PHD from a credible university.

  The bold is my emphasis. You state that one has to take the information and decide if a group falls under the parameters of a high control organization. So an analysis has to be made of the parameters and the evidence that is being presented of the organization. But the key word that you used is "analyzing" that requires a person to take their own perceptions of a matter into account.

  And here is a definition of analysis:

  detailed examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis for discussion or interpretation.
  

  And yes you are right analysis requires a detailed examination, but notice the last word in the definition that is interpertation. Interperterpation is therefor defined as:

  to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance

  So again it is subjective.
  
  

  That is why mental health counseling can be such a tricky issue. We saw this in a posting just recently where a poster had an issue with the fact that their counselor feels that leaving Watchtower is a personal choice, I am sorry for not remembering the exact term that was used. But the point that I am making is, that if you put into a room 100 psychiatrist, psychologist and mental health counselors, and gave them the exact same scenario, you would probably get a wide variety of opinions as to the cause of it. There would certainly be some overlap in thought and diagnosis but you wouldn't get a universal consensus on all of the claims.

  And again like I said earlier. If it would be a generally accepted fact in the mental health profession that Watchtower is a high control organization, there would be people in that profession who would say so in a journal article that has been reviewed and accepted by their colleagues.

  Again I am not disputing that you and many other people feel that Watchtower is such, but again that is your opinion and you and everyone else is entitled to that. I never disputed that you and others may have been hurt by Watchtower. I never disputed that you may have felt that you were controlled by Watchtower. But those are your opinions and your feelings. I nor no one else can take those away from you, but you cannot claim that your opinion and your feelings are facts for anyone other than you, those are your facts those may not be the facts for someone else.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Orphan crow.. I ask for a peer review article because you make it sound like it is a standard fact. And you have made it sound like it is a fact that watchtower is a high control organization. It is this well accepted fact you can present at least one peer reviewed article that says that. There are plefty of peer reviewed journals that discuss cults and high control organizations. So either it is an opinion that people have about it or it is a fact. If it is a fact there should be at least one professional who is willing to make the statement and have a group of their colleagues agree with them.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Orphan crow. If you want to call this a fact. Please provide me with a peer reviewed article that shows that someone with mental health education and expertise that states that watchtower is a high control organization. And to be clear a peer reviewed article would be in a journal that would be such as the Journal of the American Medical Association.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Well orphan crow. It is your opinion that watchtower is a high control organization. I don't buy into that theory. And you feel it is not a subjective thing, but you say it is an absolute fact. I am not going to argue with you because no matter what all it will devolve I to is an argument about that. I think that there are more important things to dwell on and you don't. Again that is your right to feel what is the most important thing to focus on.
• 
  130

  Not a sympathizer

  by Richard Oliver in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.

  i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.

  i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.

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  Richard Oliver

  Outlaw no you have not. You copy and paste and that is it. Use ur own words like a big boy. Explain it to me because according to you I am an idiot.